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Live Chat with Rupert Neve
October 23, 2002

Moderated by Fletcher
       

 


Fletcher: Well, this man really needs no introduction. Pretty much anyone who is involved with audio production seems to say his name a few times a day in relation to something. Be it consoles we would like to work on, or individual modules we would like to own, or equipment that is used as a point of reference for our industry.

I'm probably asked 10-15 times a day if “it sounds like a Neve" [the point of this 'chat' is to try to get a bit better definition of just what that means]. So here's an opportunity to have somewhat of a conversation with the first name we think of when it comes to outstanding sounding audio equipment, a man I am rather proud to call a friend... Mr. Rupert Neve.

Good evening Rupert.

Rupert Neve: Good Evening...

Fletcher: Here we go...

Chrissugar: In the early days [1073], the use of the output transformer was a technical necessity or you used it to achieve a special sound…

Rupert Neve: This question goes to the heart of my original designs. I used transformers because in those days it was the only professional way of interconnecting equipment. We used balanced lines by default, if you like.

Everything was balanced and worked between 600 ohms termination. This meant that the modules which you are familiar with today would be reconnected, recycled endlessly without the problem of ground loops and so on.... When they sell old modules if doesn't benefit me in my old age trying to build a retirement fund.

chrissugar: What do you think about the new designs with op-amps [5532] compared to the old transistor designs?

Rupert: Well, to answer these I would start by saying how long have you got? One of the qualities of the original designs is that they were all single ended. This meant that there was no crossover distortion. Every IC, or maybe I should say almost every IC, includes the push-pull output stage and of course, it has very small power capability.

Such a stage will produce small amounts, maybe some of them not so small, of crossover distortion. Which is to say that there are high order harmonics present which are not in the original music --and I'm even incorrect calling them harmonics. They are spikes, which occur at the repetition rate of the signal frequency.

And, although small in nature, it can be perceived not only by the trained ear, but even by, shall we say "Joe Public". The way he would notice it is that it produces sensation of frustration as he listens to music.

Fletcher: How does the "Transformer Like Amplifier" (did I get the name right?) behave in terms of "crossover distortion"?

Rupert: I think the first thing to say is the transformer like amplifier can be configured with discrete transistors and it would be if it were important. In my 9098 console there are, I believe, last count, some 64 busses. I use transformers on all the main signal busses but, entirely due to space and weight, I use the TLA transformer like amplifier or auxiliary (auxiliaries) which are not as demanding as the main busses.

However, I also use a technique which offsets the DC at the output of the integrated circuits and so removes that crossover distortion from the zero line and places it at a higher level, usually around 0 dBu. That makes a huge difference to the percentage of distortion.

Tom Borthwick: I have a 5106 console and on an Audio Precision test it goes from 5 Hz to over 150hz. This extended bandwith, was it a concerted effort or just the result of good design?

Rupert: Good question. Well Tom, I’m guessing what you meant was 150 kHz not Hz. The transformers and all the amplifiers in these designs were of that order. The console mentioned, if I remember correctly, was a broadcast console, one of the later ones. We were paying particular attention to bandwidth. Incidentally, that console was designed by Geoff Watts, one of my earliest collegues on my design team.

Fletcher: There has been some measure of debate about bandwidth including frequencies above 20kHz, can we hear them, do they make a difference, etc.

Rupert: OK, Fletch, pin your ears back...back in 1977, just after I had sold the company, George Martin called me to say that Air Studios had taken delivery of a Neve Console which did not seem to be giving satisfaction to Geoff Emmerick. In fact, he said that Geoff is unhappy.... engineers from the company, bear in mind that at this point I was not primarily involved, had visited the studio and reported that nothing was wrong. They said that the customer is mad and that the problem will go away if we ignore it long enough.

Well I visited the studio and after careful listening with Geoff, I agreed with him that three panels on this 48 panel console sounded slightly different. We discovered that there was a 3 dB peak at 54kHz Geoff's golden ears had perceived that there was a difference. We found that 3 transformers had been incorrectly wired and it was a matter of minutes to correct this. After which Geoff was happy. And I mean that he relaxed and there was a big smile on his face.

As you can imagine a lot of theories were put forward, but even today I couldn't tell you how an experienced listener can perceive frequencies of the normal range of hearing.

And following on from this, I was visiting Japan and was invited to the laboratories of Professor Oohashi He had discovered that when filteres were applied to an audio signal cutting off frequencies of 20 kHz, the brain started to emit electric signals which can be measured and quantified

These signals were at the frequencies and of the pattern which are associated with frustration and anger. Clearly we discussed this at some length and I also would forward the idea that any frequncies which were not part of the original music, such as quantisizing noise produced by compact discs and other digital sources, also produced similar brain waves.
Fletcher: What about frequencies below 20Hz (theoretically, the low end of the human range of hearing)... how do they affect the tone?

Rupert: OK Fletch, now we get down to the meat and potatoes... I believe it is necessary to not only maintain the frequency response, to well below 20 Hz, but to keep the phase integrity. Failure to do this produces a slight muddiness and again, it is very difficult to quantify. All of my designs are kept within a phase shift of between 2 and 5 degrees down to 10 Hz

Bink: What are the most important measurement specifications, in your opinion? What specs can be thought of as less important than the resultant 'sound'?

Rupert: This is almost impossible to answer... because it depends on the function of a particular circuit. I suppose the most significant measurement is to establish that there is virtually no crossover distortion.

We currently in the Pure Path design for harmonics measured on an Audio Precision System 2 less than 130 dB down. This also applies an extremely low noise floor I'm sorry, I meant implies.... and for example, the 9098 console was measured at unity gain has a dynamic range of about 126 dB This of course is 6 dB better than any digital system can yet deliver. These two measurements are probably the most significant. Of course, when digital comes of age, we" have circuits on the bench now which will deliver better than 140 dB of dynamic range!

Ronny: Speaking of keeping phase shift between 2 and 5 degrees. Do you have any views on linear phase EQ?

Rupert Neve: Ronny, this is a perpetual question we get asked all the time. I take it you would be referring to equalizer and filters. When you apply equalization to an audio signal you are enhancing or depleting a portion of the spectrum. And, phase shift will always accompany that correction of equalization in the analog domain This is part of nature.

You can experience it by simply cupping your hands around your mouth and your voice will immediately change frequency response due to the resonator you have now applied. If you did something similar with a musical instrument the same would hold true. The acoustic resonator which you are applying is following laws of nature that include a lot of phase shift.

It sounds sweet and natural of course, some people's voices benefit more than others!!

loudist: Please excuse me if this was already asked but... regarding phase shift, isn't this one of the reasons tubes (valves) sound better to most is that the phase shift of tubes is minimal compared to solid state amplification?

Rupert Neve: This is not something I would agree with... Tubes sound better because, for the most part, they are used in single sided configurations or if they are used in push-pull the crossover point is already biased well away from zero. Solid state amplifiers are much easier to design with extremely low phase shift Not specifically due to tubes vs. solid state but because the impedences necessary to use in tube circuits make them somewhat more limited

Harvey: What's your opinion of "euphonic" (even order) distortion products?

Rupert Neve: Harvey, this is another big subject. Many years ago I listened to a lecture by Dr. James Moire at the British Institute of Radio Engineers who had researched human sensitivity to the different orders of harmonics. Odd harmonics are much more readily perceived and are usually destructive to listening pleasure. Whereas even harmonics tend to be benign I did some work on this a few years ago and constructed a chart based on James Moire's findings and of many friends in the industry which chose that human sensitivity to harmonics is proportional to the frequency.

In fact it is hard to put into words but if I could show you this chart.... I would be happy to publish it. The important point here is once again the incredible sensitivity of humans to small distortions or restrictions in amplifier performance which result in pleasure or frustration. So let me get back to the question, did I answer it or wander off into a most interesting sideline...

chrissugar: Considering that people like the classic NEVE sound do you have any plans to remake these devices?

Rupert Neve: No designer wants to put the clock back and indeed, there were many subtle differences in these old designs depending upon the year that they were made and the available components I regard many of these now as "effects units". I have concentrated on pure designs which will be, or I should say, which are totally transparent.

I have seen many studios use the old classics in this way to enhance the performance of, shall we say, less satisfactory designs... But, yes, we are expecting in the next 12 months to issue a range of units which will have a behavior similar to the old classics. The size and price of these is significantly lower than the originals so if you're thinking of buying any more of my old modules wait and see what is announced in the next few months.

dbock: I believe that the 1081 (class AB, four bands + shelves) modules came after the 1073's (class A, fewer features). I've long wondered if the dramatic changes that occurred when moving from the 73 to the 81 were primarily engineering driven, market driven (and if it was market driven, what was causing engineers of the time to demand such a very class AB sound), or some combination of the two?

Rupert Neve: Let's see. Well ,the engineers did not demand an AB sound but there was more component density and consoles were getting bigger all the time, so we had to reduce the current that was drawn by the original circuits. There did not seem to be, at that time, any reason for not doing it.

And, you know, this is progress. We now know what the effect of making those changes is and all I can say is, please, in the next few months, contribute to my pension fund, by purchasing the new stuff which will have taken care of these criticisms, I hope.

jjjj: Is there any advantage in digital audio through a DA and into the AMEK Purepath processed and then out the Digital IO. There has been some discussion that Digital recorded samples will benefit from the AMEK processing and resampling. What are your thoughts?

Rupert Neve: I'm not quite certain what you mean here. What has been established is that if you mix in the analog domain the integrity of your mixed signals is far more accurate than trying to mix in the digital domain. The AMEK DIB, which is a driver in a box, incorporates balanced mixing busses. Studios that have used this unit as an analog mixer have been amazed at the way in which the sound comes to life and attains a performance and space which is not available with a digital mix..

Any DA or AD places some restrictions on audio performance. One of the significant things that happen when you connect an AMEK Purepath or even one of my old modules (which are transformer modules) is the sonic improvement that seems to be applied to a digital signal. I'm not sure if that answers the question but at any rate you have given me a platform for my opinion.

loudist: Mr. Neve, I wanted to thank you for your discussion on the web regarding the sampling 'stairstep' corner distortions in present day A/D converters. What would be a solution to this anomoly?

Rupert Neve: Ok, simple answer. Higher sampling rates.

Bink: How much do you think IC manufacturers' unilateral decisions to pull chips out of production will affect your future designs? How do you design in a safety net for these caprices?

Rupert Neve: Bink -- you are trying to scare me! All I can say is that solid state devices including very early transistors which were manufactured 30 or 40 years ago are still available. From esoteric sources Provided that they continue to be available for the next 25 years it doesn't actually worry me, I'll then be over 100 years old and maybe able to retire.

Fletcher: A little bird mentioned that you were planning on doing some work with "iz Technologies"... anything you'd care to talk about?

Rupert Neve: The problem is a straight commercial one. There are a number of clients whom we are currently building relationships with and designing products which will be available within the next few months. Until they are ready to make public announcements I can only tickle your sensitivities by speaking mysteriously.

One clue I can give you is that any digital device - and there are some very good ones, now - benefit from extremely high quality analog amplifiers both before and after the digital. In the case of iz, they do have a remarkable hard disc recorder. I have listened to material recorded on Radar and other hard disk machines and it is now possible to hear imperfections which are caused by inadequate mic or line pre's. I won't mention names but we now have to be very meticulous about the analog source.

RPhilbeck: Mr. Neve, when you say, "we", are you refering to AMEK?

Rupert Neve: Mr. R Philbeck, AMEK has been my faithful client and friend for about 13 years. And most of what I am saying applies to my relationship with them. But, I do have other clients; one which you might find of interest, is not even in the pro audio business. Taylor Guitars commissioned me to produce a totally new pickup and amplifier. We collaborated and closed on their implementation of a beautiful linear pickup. We have produced a range of guitars and equalizers which will be shown the first time at the NAMM show in January.

So these, too, will be come the "we" I am talking about. My various clients and I. Life gets more and more interesting as people become more and more aware of the need for a very high quality.

Lee: Do you have an opinion as to why it is so much more imperative to have high quality amplifiers when recording to digital than tape?

Rupert Neve: Lee we are going back to the recorder. You mention tape. Now let's bear in mind that even the best of our lovely old tape machines had amplifiers in them which did not measure up to the performance we can achieve today. The tape medium imposed severe restrictions on the dynamic range and on the frequency response.

There was also a great deal of 3rd harmonic distortion which sounded great with some material but you can have too much of a good thing. The tape machine would mask imperfections in the source material whereas even CD quality digital can produce dynamic range of 90 dB and a frequency response which may well be greater or at least more reliable than the old tape machine

Therefore you can see that although the distortions inherent in the low grade digital are extremely distressing one still has to be very careful to maintain accurate source materials. I've expressed that rather badly but I hope I've conveyed my feelings about it.

Fletcher: OK... a couple more, and we'll let Mr. Neve have the rest of the evening off...

jason fee: Throughout your career what's been the best advice that anyone's ever given you??

Rupert Neve: Now then, Fletch, I could have the rest of the evening off after a couple more...but you don't know how long this one can be.... probably the best advice came from an old friend now deceased who was our accountant in the early days of the Neve company When he showed me that we are, as humans, created and designed, if you like, in the image of our creator - God. His creativity is in a sense available to us and we recognize it and use it responsibly. Hopefully.

So what we do is beyond ourselves. Perhaps another way of putting it is that we strive, strive, strive knowing that we will never reach the state of perfection in our designs. There is always another step waiting, to be explored. We could say that there is always room at the top. See you at the top!

Harvey: Would you care to comment on your friendship with Mark McQuilken?

Rupert Neve: Harvey -- yes, I first met Mark some years ago when Evelyn and I came to live in Wimberly He is a brilliant designer who has helped me from time to time especially to understand the mysteries of the digital domain. I hold Mark and his family high on my list of friends.

andrew_r: In your TapeOp interview, you mentioned http://www.Rupertneve.com - any idea when the website might be up and running?

Rupert Neve: Andrew, we're working on it and, of course, one of the problems is
were do you start? We hope that we'll get some stuff up in the next few weeks.

Harvey: Thank you for a delightful evening.

Rupert Neve: Well, thank you folks, too. I'm sure that having corresponded with several with you that may have tuned in. I hope that it has been as interesting for you as it has been for me.

Fletcher: On behalf of the entire PSW/UCI/RecPit and LAB crew, I'd like to thank Rupert for sharing his time and knowledge with us. A transcript of the chat will be available within the next 24 hours or so. Watch the PSW homepage for details.